Ceramic and porcelain tile, more than almost any other surface material, need a stable . You can apply it on PVC, metal, slabs, walls, and floors. Make sure the floor is level in the shower. When doing so, it is important to ensure that the drywall surface is clean and free of dust, grease, and loose paint. Water-resistant gypsum board, or green board, was used in the past as a tile backer but is no longer recommended, mainly because better products are available. Once its applied, the last step is to follow up the waterproof coating with a waterproof sealant. He would take his rough opening measurement and subtract the thicknesses of the tile, the cement board, and in his unique install method the purpleboard. Yes. Not everyone knows how to do mud and lathe it's so old school plus it wears you out, ive been a setter for 27 yrs and I have yet to go back to one of my showers I installed using perma base or durock, with a liner, i have started using waterproofing such as redguard or aqua-defense. Personally, I like standard drywall. Let the mortar dry for 24 hours then test the shower. Jessica considers herself a home improvement and design enthusiast. Whether or not you need a Kerdi membrane is a factor of use. This will ensure a strong bond between the KERDI membrane and the substrate. The drywall's back side fails, and it's just as bad or worse than it was on the tile side. We think it is the cement board (Durock) sucking the moisture out of the unmodified thinset. The bag says Mapei floortile mortar, it was the only unmodified thinset at our hardware store. You still use metal lath, but then mix bags of powder and pour the soupy mix onto the floor. Slap it up comb it out, leave every ridge tall and perfect. Removing bathroom tile from cement backerboard, Transition from KERDI membrane backed, to not backed. Why do small African island nations perform better than African continental nations, considering democracy and human development? I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. Also - use a good thinset. The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. What do you mean it doesn't adhere? We were using a 3/16 x 5/32 trowel, probably to small. It is a pliable waterproofing membrane that also doubles as a vapor retarder. "..2) the kerdi band isn't stuck flat -- the edges in some spots are wavy. We recommend our users to update the browser. We want that inside corner able to move. Well, DH said he had virtually no time to work with the stuff before it dried out, so he switched from my spritz bottle to a sponge. When cleaning thinset off of Schluter membranes, the manufacturer recommends using a wet sponge and taking care to avoid any scoring or inconsistencies on the surface of the membrane. Press the Kerdi Membrane into the Thinset Mortar with firm, even pressure to achieve full mortar coverage. I just a few weeks ago put kerdi on top of hardi-board in my shower and it was PAINFUL! My floor tiles are 2" x 2"." - Lisa Jasper No - you can not use Kerdi Board on the floor. If any is found, wait a few more hours and then re-inspect. ), Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, Finite abelian groups with fewer automorphisms than a subgroup. Kerdi does admit that you can use cement board. Kerdi board, on the other hand, is an extruded polystyrene foam panel. Euler: A baby on his lap, a cat on his back thats how he wrote his immortal works (origin? Sheets of glass mat gypsum are made from water-resistant silicone-treated gypsum, reinforced on both sides by fiberglass mats. This is necessary to ensure that the membrane will adhere properly to the drywall. If you are good with a trowel and understand how to set up and use screeds as a guide for leveling or forming the mortar, pouring a traditional mortar bed may be a good alternative to tile backer board, especially on uneven or sloping floors. By the time you switch from the RG application to the Kerdi installation, it should be dry. Needless to say, the drywall turned to mush. In general, modified thin-set mortar is not recommended to set ceramic and stone tile, including large format tiles, over the KERDI membrane. Hardie board is a cement-based siding product that is water-resistant, but not waterproof. Yes, Kerdi membrane can be installed over plywood. Is this overkill? Well, I'm going to give you three different ways to seal the backer board at the tub flange. x 48 in. Step 7: Cut the Tile. In a perfect job, it will waterproof. Installing cement board involves placing the boards atop a layer of thinset adhesive, a process known as bedding. This will help to ensure that all drywall is completely covered. First, you would waterproof with your favorite liquid waterproofing membrane of . Because it can let some moisture wick through it, you have two choices: put a moisture barrier behind it to protect the structure, or, waterproof the front of it. This product is available in 3/16", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" 3/4", 1" 1-1/2" and 2" thicknesses, allowing for a wide variety of installation options. ), Schluter SET, ALL-SET, FAST-SET or an unmodified thin-set mortar is recommended. How do you show the depth of a hole in a drawing? This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in To ensure the floor is clean, wipe it with a wet sponge. It is a topical waterproofing layer that is put over the substrate to keep water from getting to the wood frame and nails. I'm guessing he put a 2x6 across for the curb? I posted a plea for help and Mongo and Bill both gave me good advice. Bulk update symbol size units from mm to map units in rule-based symbology. If you are looking for a way to minimize height buildup and eliminate a large level difference at thresholds, a mat product is a good solution. Once you have selected the right sealer, follow the manufacturers instructions and apply a generous, even coat over the entire surface of the Hardie board. . Kerdi membrane can be used on cement board, drywall, and, as you may have guessed- greenboard. Yes, Schluter membranes can go over cement board. This will prevent water from entering from behind the membrane, and will provide a more secure waterproof layer. We are still most comfortable with full plumber's pan over the curb, including glue-on preformed corners, and also a second layer (usually Kerdi but can be paint-on) on top of CBU wrap over curb. Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange! To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. Cement board (cbu) is not waterproof, but is not damaged by being wet. This makes Kerdi Board suitable for a wide variety of interior applications, including kitchen countertops. Overall, putting Kerdi over regular drywall can be done, with the proper steps in place to properly install the membrane and its components. 4. Moisture resistant can cause similar problems, and there is absolutely no advantage to it. (3ft-3in wide)Or will the Kerdi membrane (with seams taped with kerdi band) prevent each board from moving . This will ensure that the coating sticks to the cement board. With that said, the key benefits of Kerdi Board include: While cement board may be the most common and widely-known tile substrate, Kerdi Board is giving it a run for its money. Think about movement. Once its cleaned, use caulk to seal all of the seams where the cement board meets the walls. Welcome to the site. Important to overlap seams in a shingle method. Why do you think each board should be able to move at all let alone independently? . When it comes to selecting thinset for cement board, there are a few important factors to consider. Ready to join the 100,000+ homeowners matched with pros? Thanks Paul! I look at ceramic tile as a lifetime-of the house-product, so I use the best material for the job.I prefer to use cement board as the substrate with the Kerdi on top. #4 You could be adding a good 1000 pounds to your install too. Another advantage is that the polyisocyanurate core of foam boards is waterproof. There is no cutting or fitting of boards, and a mortar bed is good for leveling and flattening uneven or out-of-level floors, which are common in old houses. You just need a hammer and wonderbar for the walls. Not to mention, its warrantied by Schluter, giving you the ultimate peace of mind. How did this project turn out? As far as the tile/prep work, you are right that he is shifting the blame. If I go the kerdi membrane route, do I still need to tape the joints before installing the kerdi membrane . They are absorbed into the surface material and help keep moisture away from the substrate surface. ".1) is is okay to use kerdi board instead of ditra on the floor? En cliquant sur Accepter , j'accepte l'utilisation des cookies telle qu'elle est dcrite plus en dtail dans la Politique d'Utilisation des Cookies de Houzz. Schluter says that the Kerdi membrane and tile can be installed over standard gypsum wall board without any problems. Schluter Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT 48 in. Sledge hammers for the floor, that might take a bit of time. ;). 120 sq feet including the floor. What precautions should I take installing tile on a backerboard in an area surrounded by cement? Other mistakes I was making early on:-over working the thinset. Will add it in. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. I think it is engrained in me to do that so I forget to mention it. When screwed to the framing, thin strips of cement board fracture more easily than thin strips of fiber-cement. Need help liner vs liquid membrane question. It's a lightweight polystyrene board faced with Kerdi that comes in various thicknesses that you can use in place of drywall or cement board. We just went through a learning curve on the Kerdi and Hardi. ! I hang Kerdi on cement board and fibercement board all the time. Self-leveling underlayment has many of the same advantages as a dry-pack mortar bed but doesnt require as much skill to install. More waste, yes, but I think you have to have a LOT of practice to hang those huge sheets like mongo does. Cement board is particularly vulnerable to water damage, so waterproofing can help protect it and help it last longer. You absolutely need to include some sort of substrate (cement board, green board, regular drywall) with the Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing kit. x 60 in. For the floor, he should've put a mortar bed, then a membrane that goes over the curb, then another mortar bed. Actually if you watch any pros work (not on crappy shows) on TV you will see them use backer board 99% of the time. When applying Kerdi membrane to cement board, the edges and seams of the membrane must be lapped, meaning that each layer should overlap the portion underneath it by a minimum of two inches. Once the wall is prepped, use a primer that is compatible with the KERDI membrane so that it will properly adhere to the wall. Once this is done, continue the installation by following the directions for the particular Kerdi product being used. Depending on factors such as room temperature, humidity, and ventilation in the area, this could take anywhere from 1 to 3 days. Allow the adhesive to cure for the amount of time recommended by the adhesives manufacturer. Been clankin' away at this computer for a couple of hours now, guys. I imagine we could share some good stories. However, a cement board is generally easier and less expensive to replace if a repair is needed. First, its super lightweight compared with the rest. Hardibacker is a VERY "thirsty" material that sucks the moisture out of the mortar VERY quickly and I don't like it. Bathroom closets are often catch-alls for anything and everything remotely related to self-care. However if installed on drywall it is only protecting one side. A lot of folks like using cement board but it's heavy and requires a waterproofing membrane over it. For all the substrates listed in this Handbook (e.g., gypsum board, cement backerboard, etc. The 30-in. This is often accomplished by filling any holes and cracks in the wall with appropriate spackling or patching material. This flexible polyethylene layer is easy to install and can protect the tile from both cracking and moisture. I don't want to use the Ditra membrane product but rather tiles directly over the cement boards. Sure, you can do it.just be sure to "spritz" or wet the hardi thoroughly before.it's pretty "thirsty.". Start by cleaning the cement board with a mineral oil soap; this will help reduce mold and mildew growth throughout the life of the shower. Cement board is known to be very heavy and somewhat difficult to cut. Cement board is the industry standard when it comes to tile substrates and the most preferred among professionals when installing porcelain or ceramic tile. The Ditra uncoupling design is lightweight, durable, and minimizes the possibility of cracked tile and grout. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[580,400],'remodelormove_com-large-mobile-banner-1','ezslot_17',164,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-large-mobile-banner-1-0');As an added precaution, you may want to consider to adding a water-resistant layer afterwards, such as a caulking or flashing tape. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. You're correct if you use the shluter kerdi membrane you do not use a vapour barrier since it creates a sandwhich effect that doesn't allow the substrate . On top of that, fiber cement board is even more brittle than standard cement board, so you have to be extra careful to keep screws at least an inch from the edge to avoid breaking the board. That's the way us "Tile Guys" do it all the time. But a mortar bed does have advantages. It looks like you have Kerdi installed on the floor and not Kerdi Board. If cement board had been used, most likely the damage would have been much less that what I have to deal with now. Additionally, a liquid water-resistant membrane should be applied over all surface areas before installation. Schluter SET, ALL-SET, FAST-SET or an unmodified thin-set mortar must be used to construct all KERDI seams to ensure watertightperformance of the system. When installed, Kerdi Board creates a substrate that is level, flat, square, plumb, and dimensionally stable. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer) as we strive to provide site experiences for browsers that support new web standards and security practices. Kerdi 3 ft. 3 in. Cement board is the most common and widely-known backer board. The niche' intermediate shelf isn't actually attached, to enable specific placement for each unique tiling application. While cement board is a reliable tile underlayment, it isnt completely waterproof only water-resistant. Why you use cement board? Cement boards are typically capable of withstanding larger amounts of water, while a Schlter system is designed to hold up well only in dry conditions. And for a more secure fit, you can also use screws. An extra layer of thinset is then added to the surface of the cement board to adhere the tiles in place. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried . Install the Schluter Kerdi membrane over the backer board using the correct mortar. @JimmyFix-it - You are right. Keep in mind, that, just to be safe, most professionals choose to install a waterproofing membrane on top of the cement board when installing in wet locations like tub surrounds or showers. builder, anti-builder, rebuilder -- Retired Moderator. There's a really great manual (with diagrams) that makes this all easier to understand. KERDI was developed as a waterproofing membrane to be used in . The cement board can also become weakened and start to flake away when it absorbs moisture, causing ugly spots and patches to start appearing on the wall. Modified thinset adhesive is a premixed product that contains latex or acrylic components which make it quite a bit more flexible than regular thinset adhesive and therefore better suited to some applications. Some being easier to work with than others. Once all that is completed and the Aquadefense has dried, you can install your tile with a polymer modified mortar meeting the ANSI requirements of A118.4 or A118.11. . No, that doesn't sound right. Putting this stuff on walls is difficult and time . Blocking should be constant across this area when openings are larger than your fist. A hundred times better to have too much before you comb than too little. On the other hand, a Schlter system offers improved thermal insulation, which can help to reduce heating costs. I guess that why it was so frustrating that cement board is just sooo thirsty. Applying a conventional cement backer board to such a structure is almost impossible. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-1','ezslot_24',166,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-1-0');If cement board is not waterproof, it can negatively impact the integrity of the tile that is installed on top of it, and can lead to a variety of issues. First, felt paper is stapled to the floor and covered with expanded metal lath. How do I align things in the following tabular environment? This is confusing since Kerdi Board has no Kerdi on it. I set the Kerdi with my hands, pat it into the thinset with my hands, then go over it with a 4" taping knife held at a low angle to embed the Kerdi in the thinset. For indoor projects and gypsum board, thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is ideal. @JimmyFix-it - hardiboard is not really porous unless it is completely saturated. You'll know the RG is dry when it turns reallllly dark bright red as opposed to the pinkish color when applied. Manufactured by Schluter Systems, Kerdi Board is a multifunctional tile underlayment and construction panel, that can also be implemented for forming bonded waterproof assemblies with tile coverings. You peeled it off? The Schlter system tends to be more durable than a cement board, but it also depends on the particular application and the weather. I would get someone else. This will help to extend its lifespan and make sure it looks its best for years to come. As fiber cement board is similar to regular cement board, it makes sense to choose the one that is cheaper or more readily available. Cement board and grout are not water proof, if there's Kerdi no moisture is ever going to be able to get behind it. Hang the cement boar. The thickness of the tile is important, and should be known, but not because it changes the method of building. Continuing Education for Architects & Designers. No, you do not need to install a vapor barrier, as Kerdi Board is the vapor barrier. Rolling pin, good, now I can throw away my magnesium float.LOLCasey. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Yes, KERDI membrane will stick to cement board. Then cement, sand and water are mixed together to a crumbly consistency and floated over the lath to form a flat surface. And second, since its foam, the board is super easy to cut with just a utility knife. You are telling someone "to have" an artistry that not only takes art skills, knowing how to mix mortar for different situations, and a good amount of practice. x 5-ft. and 3 x 5-ft. sheets of cement board are sized for efficient use around bathtubs and showers. For the floor I make a dry mix mud base and then the Kerdi membrane. Fiber cement board is a variation of cement board that is made from compressed cement and sand and reinforced with wood fibers throughout. When it comes to applying KERDI, however, it is advised to use a regular thinset that includes portland cement as its main component. Additionally, all seams should be sealed with Kerdi Fix and covered with fleece. Given the complexity, its easy to see why even experienced tile setters avoid dry-pack mortar and use backer board instead when they can. Following the correct application of Kerdi membrane over cement board will ensure a successful waterproofing installation and lasting results for your tile project. Following these steps will help ensure that your shower space is properly sealed, and thus that the cement board is well protected from moisture. :/. We ended up sponging the Hardi and wetting and booking the Kerdi (a la wallpaper), and that made the installation go much smoother. vegan) just to try it, does this inconvenience the caterers and staff? Yes, KERDI membrane will stick to cement board. A successful tile installation largely depends on the substrate that the tile is attached to. It could take longer if the space is particularly wet or humid. Both Kerdi Board and cement board are designed to smooth out uneven spots on the installation surface, create an unbending layer that wont flex underfoot, and also provide a waterproof barrier. It is easier to cut than cement board, it is mold resistant, and it has a built-in moisture barrier. Je peux rejeter les cookies non essentiels en cliquant sur Grer mes prfrences . 120 sq feet including the floor. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Not even the plumber's fault as it was just a bad valve. Cut the Kerdi membrane to size using a utility knife or scissors. What's the difference between a power rail and a signal line? The major drawback to cement boards is their weight, as they are incredibly heavy and can be difficult to cut. The waterproof membrane isn't a substitute for the substrate. Your Get free, zero-commitment quotes from pro contractors near you. The completed assembly takes the place of more traditional backer board when installed over 3/4-inch wood subfloors. LONDON. Kerdi-Board is an extruded polystyrene foam panel, with reinforcing material on both sides, covered by fleece webbing for effective anchoring of thin-set mortar. If you want to go to the extra effort of putting the membrane over drywall, there is no need to use greenboard. Most cement-based thin-set mortars are suitable; however, it is important to check the manufacturers instructions to ensure that the product is approved for use with Schluter systems. Unlike cement boards, you can bend this material without it breaking. We apply the thinset the recommended trowel, can't remember what size off the top of my head, in small sections and by the time my husband hands my the piece of membrane the thinset is not skinned over but certainly dry. It only takes a minute to sign up. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-box-3','ezslot_2',173,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-box-3-0');Yes, you can put Kerdi membrane over cement board. Finally, make sure to select a thinset that is appropriate for the job, check the manufacturers recommendation, and always follow the instructions on the product label. If done according to manufacturers instructions, it will seal nicely. If you preorder a special airline meal (e.g. We are DIYers who have already remodeled one bathroom successfully, but this is our first time using The Schluter shower system. If you are laying tile on floors that are wavy or out of level, self-leveling underlayment is a great solution. I also used the Kerdi drain. Additionally, all thin-set mortars should be suitable for use in wet or feature depths of up to 1/8 inch. Sloped Shower Tray KST1220/1525 - The Home Depot. If there is no blocking behind the seam, i would just tape prior to installing the membrane, the thinset will fill the seam and embed the mesh. Now there's nothing particularly wrong with fiber-cementit's just not my first choice. There is a product called Kerdiboard you might want to look into. In general, the Schlter system is typically more expensive than a cement board, and some people may find this an attractive option for its long lasting, easy to maintain qualities. The cement board needs to be clean, free of debris, and dry. RedGard On Hardibacker Board. How do I connect these two faces together? I barely touch it with my hands before going to the tape knife. Aquadefense is approved by IAPMO for use as a shower pan liner, but be sure to check your local building codes, as some areas of the country still require the PVC liner. I always install it over cement board or backerboard, never over drywall, even blueboard or the mold resistant greenboard. Recovering from a blunder I made while emailing a professor, Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain. A.Sean Gerolimatos, technical services manager for Schluter Systems, responds: With a few exceptions, unmodified thinset mortar is required for setting ceramic and stone tile over Kerdi membranes (800/472-4588, www.schluter.com ), as well as for bonding overlapped seams and connections to Kerdi drains. You provide the pitch during the tile set. Will be doing a bathroom gut and will be laying durock cement board over plywood sub floor. Whether youre installing tile on a floor, wall, or countertop, choosing the right type of substrate, or underlayment, is critical to preventing breaks and cracks in both the tile and the grout. Kerdi membrane prevents water damage and mold development. When applying the thin-set, it should be applied in such a way that it fully fills any empty space between the Tile and Schluter product and is solid enough to support the weight of the tiles being installed. However, the answer you provided above suggests that the OP could omit a waterproof membrane, that I. The Kerdi/Daltile TS underlayments do have some valid applications such as in steam shower installations where a bullet proof vapor barrier is required. MAPEI makes products for each step of the remodel process, giving you a single source solution, and only one phone number to call if you need assistance! But that doesn't address your question, so it's just a comment, not an answer as such.
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